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antishurtugal_reborn2019-09-14 07:31 pm
epistler) wrote in antishurtugal_reborn2019-09-14 07:31 pm
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Repost: Issues with TIC's villains and the protagonist's motivations.
Originally posted by Hi, so I've been lurking around here for quite a while, and, as an ex-fan of TIC, this seems like a good place to finally get something off my chest that has been bothering me ever since I reread Inheritance. Hell, if I'm being completely honest, it's mainly what turned me off of the series (besides the fact that the fourth book sucked major ass).
My main problems boil down to the villains being a hell of a lot more interesting than the protaganists and Galbatorix not seeming that bad. Well, that and the fact that the Varden's actions aren't that justifiable. Allow me to explain. When we first were introduced to Galbatorix in Inheritance, he didn't come off as a total monster like we were meant to believe. In fact, his justification for his take-over made sense and was relatively logical. Given the fact that we still don't know jackshit about the old riders, we can't automatically call him evil for deposing them. We were given a very biased view of history, and for all we know, they really could have been assholes. This coupled with Galbatorix's history makes him a hell of a lot more interesting than anyone on the good side (except for Oromis). Especially Douche-agon. The fact that the Empire runs smoothly and people seem happy also helps with my case here. He doesn't seem like a bad ruler at all.
Moving onto the minor villains, as little as we get about Morzan, even though he sounds like a total prick, the promise of a few chapters from his POV are a hell of a lot more enticing than the Great Chosen One's. Durza was pretty cool. I though the Raazaac were also pretty cool. If the good guys were more interesting, this would not be a problem, but unfortunately, they aren't. This leads me into another problem I have with TIC. The Varden's shady ass justifications.
Can I just start off by saying, at first, I enjoyed Nasuada and the Varden? But, over time, I begin to realize how stupid their justifications were. First off, the entire Varden were basically the elves' foot soliders. Note that. Elves. Not humans. That's a problem when the so-called evil empire runs smoothly and humanity seems happy enough. It makes the Varden look like the bad guys. Not to mention, they were really the ones who started the damn war and caused so much bloodshed. Their entire movement was built on revenge for an order long dead that most humans didn't give a shit about. Not to mention, Nasuada really turned into a goddamn tyrant in the last book.
I'm really interested to read what you guys think, and I hope you'll respond to this. Before I go, I will admit, however, even though I don't consider myself a fan of TIC anymore, if PaoPao does the prequel series like he says he wants to, I'm reading that shit just for the Galbatorix POVs (which are actually confirmed. So yay). I guess that makes me a bad detractor haha.
Comments (I copied out the good/interesting ones, so the bitchfight noted troll blackmanga started in the comments section is not included).
silverphoenixx
My main problems boil down to the villains being a hell of a lot more interesting than the protaganists and Galbatorix not seeming that bad. Well, that and the fact that the Varden's actions aren't that justifiable. Allow me to explain. When we first were introduced to Galbatorix in Inheritance, he didn't come off as a total monster like we were meant to believe. In fact, his justification for his take-over made sense and was relatively logical. Given the fact that we still don't know jackshit about the old riders, we can't automatically call him evil for deposing them. We were given a very biased view of history, and for all we know, they really could have been assholes. This coupled with Galbatorix's history makes him a hell of a lot more interesting than anyone on the good side (except for Oromis). Especially Douche-agon. The fact that the Empire runs smoothly and people seem happy also helps with my case here. He doesn't seem like a bad ruler at all.
Moving onto the minor villains, as little as we get about Morzan, even though he sounds like a total prick, the promise of a few chapters from his POV are a hell of a lot more enticing than the Great Chosen One's. Durza was pretty cool. I though the Raazaac were also pretty cool. If the good guys were more interesting, this would not be a problem, but unfortunately, they aren't. This leads me into another problem I have with TIC. The Varden's shady ass justifications.
Can I just start off by saying, at first, I enjoyed Nasuada and the Varden? But, over time, I begin to realize how stupid their justifications were. First off, the entire Varden were basically the elves' foot soliders. Note that. Elves. Not humans. That's a problem when the so-called evil empire runs smoothly and humanity seems happy enough. It makes the Varden look like the bad guys. Not to mention, they were really the ones who started the damn war and caused so much bloodshed. Their entire movement was built on revenge for an order long dead that most humans didn't give a shit about. Not to mention, Nasuada really turned into a goddamn tyrant in the last book.
I'm really interested to read what you guys think, and I hope you'll respond to this. Before I go, I will admit, however, even though I don't consider myself a fan of TIC anymore, if PaoPao does the prequel series like he says he wants to, I'm reading that shit just for the Galbatorix POVs (which are actually confirmed. So yay). I guess that makes me a bad detractor haha.
Comments (I copied out the good/interesting ones, so the bitchfight noted troll blackmanga started in the comments section is not included).
silverphoenixx
You know, I completely agree with you on everything pertaining to Galbatorix. Paolini made Galbatorix out to be this big huge villain but then doesn't even set up his story properly to reflect his supposed badness. And I think one gets the sense of Galbatorix not living up to the "psychopath monster" label throughout the entire series, starting from very early on in Eragon. Oh, the people of Carvahall might mention taxes being increased, but their quality of life doesn't seem to suffer at all. Hell, Eragon is made out to be incredibly poor but he still lives in a multi-room house. Then as he goes traveling, the cities he visits seem pretty normal. Especially Teirm- nothing about it bespoke insensitive tyranny, other than Jeod and other merchants losing their goods, but then again, they're working for the enemy, and hindering one's antagonists is pretty common practice for all governments. So yeah, I think most of us realized that the whole focal point of the story, overthrowing the big evil king, was really poorly executed and just ended up viewing the Varden as the jerks they are.
I'm not gonna sit here and say that Galb was 100% innocent, but as you pointed out, the world shows us one thing. Paolini tells us another. I know some fans tried to say that galbatorix allowing slavery made him evil, but it isn't exactly like he implemented it. Slavery was a thing in Alagaesia long before Galb took the throne. And considering all the problems that would come with dismantling an age-old practice and the uproar it would bring, it's understandable why he would leave it the hell alone, as fucked up as slavery is.
I know right. That was actually one of the first things that came to mind as an argument against Galby. Slavery has probably existed as long as there have been stratified societies. It's one of the trademarks of nation states. And it would have been an institution that was widely accepted in those days and definitely not something a credible ruler back then would want to get rid of.
Not saying slavery was ever a good thing, but it's not always the black and white issue modern society paints it as.
savannahd
She was more like a poorly executed character to me, we're told a lot about her, but what her actions show is much different.
cavuy
He did actually at least consider something like it, or so we were told, but we then had him being threatened that any messenger he sent would be killed, and likely him as well considering the pattern the Varden follows. And if the behavior of the Empire's citizens in the occupied cities is any indication, the Varden are far from being seen as liberators, rather as invaders who have teamed up with storybook monsters.
anonymous
In all likelihood that is what would have happened, seeing one of your major leaders going over to the other side speaks a lot about their confidence in the cause.
Not saying slavery was ever a good thing, but it's not always the black and white issue modern society paints it as.
None of this is all that surprising. It's a classic case of telling rather than showing. This is why supposedly "heroic" characters like Eragon and Roran can get away with doing horrendous things. While Galbatorix is a horrible ruler just because we're told this by the people against him. Both Eragon and Roran think and do things that make them sound far more sociopathic than we're supposed to think Galbatorix is. It's the amateur mistake of expecting these character's roles, alone, to be enough to justify the moral system. I mean it's hard to feel any real emotion for our "heroes" if their only heroic qualities is that the author says they are...even if one's only major concern on a battlefield was evening out the pile of corpses he's made.
Anonymous
The Varden aren't elves's foot soldiers until the last book, they are just their useful idiots. They took the cities for themselves, not for giving to elves, still the elves prefer human cities to be ruled by Nasuada than Galbatorix because she is a powerhungry bigot without any magic skill and so a weaker neighbor but no a puppet.
An interesting thing about Varden is that they are a little like Francisco Franco! They tried a coup d'etat to depose the usurper and restore the rightful king but when the original leaders or the rebellion died (Brom and Nasuada's father) they did a total war, conquered every inch of imperial land instead of rushing the capital and of course replaced Galbatorix with Nasuada that has nothing in common with the rightful king while Orrin could be the heir since he is from Surda. Francisco Franco did the same: conquered everything and destroy every opposition and become himself the ruler of Spain instead of the king.
An interesting thing about Varden is that they are a little like Francisco Franco! They tried a coup d'etat to depose the usurper and restore the rightful king but when the original leaders or the rebellion died (Brom and Nasuada's father) they did a total war, conquered every inch of imperial land instead of rushing the capital and of course replaced Galbatorix with Nasuada that has nothing in common with the rightful king while Orrin could be the heir since he is from Surda. Francisco Franco did the same: conquered everything and destroy every opposition and become himself the ruler of Spain instead of the king.
Oh, god. Don't even get me started on Nasuada. Fuck her. That's all I have to say. Her and Orrin are douchebags. It would be hilarious if she got axed like three months after she took the throne. Even better if the elves were the ones who orchaestrated it. The elves in this series are the biggest pretentious pricks ever.
I think Orrin was more along for the ride after a while. He was really only along to give a semblance of human unification against Galbatorix along with the other roaming tribe leaders that are given appearances. But really that falls apart when Orrin states that his men follow Nasuada more than they follow him. And let's not forget that the Varden were starting to bankrupt Surda with cheap lace, and refused to stop selling it there just to line their own pockets.
If anyone in the Varden deserves some sympathy, it's Orrin, he's basically been dragged into the entire war when before Galby didn't really have a problem with Surda existing, it seemed.
If anyone in the Varden deserves some sympathy, it's Orrin, he's basically been dragged into the entire war when before Galby didn't really have a problem with Surda existing, it seemed.
That's very true. I just didn't really like how he acted in the fourth book. But then again, it was the fourth book and everything was terrible, so i definitely get where you're coming from. But I think we can both agree Nasuada was such a tool lol. Literally and figuratively.
I think the trouble with Orrin's role in the fourth book was that it was clear that Paolini was setting him up as the voice of dissent within the Varden - questioning Nasuada's leadership, their chances in the war, etc. He did bring up some good points, for instance raising flags about how they might look as liberators when urgals, monsters to most of the people in the Empire, make up a significant part of the Varden's force. Problem is Paolini didn't execute this character direction well enough, as with a lot of other things, and so I think Orrin came across looking somewhat childish when if anything he was the one person on the Varden's side speaking any kind of logic.
I would have liked to see Paolini take this much further - perhaps Orrin, having had enough of Nasuada's disregard for him and the Varden's poor planning, loses faith in their cause and switches sides, making a deal with Galbatorix to spare Surda. Given that the Varden at no point in the story experience any kind of setback or failure (I'm not counting Ajihad's death or Nasuada's capture), a betrayal would have been a nice addition.
I would have liked to see Paolini take this much further - perhaps Orrin, having had enough of Nasuada's disregard for him and the Varden's poor planning, loses faith in their cause and switches sides, making a deal with Galbatorix to spare Surda. Given that the Varden at no point in the story experience any kind of setback or failure (I'm not counting Ajihad's death or Nasuada's capture), a betrayal would have been a nice addition.
Anonymous
I think one of the reasons why Paolini didn't give the Varden any major setbacks is because one or two major setbacks is all it would really take to shut down their entire movement. It was already pretty unbelievable that they could even win, even with the elves', dwarves', and urgals' support. Just because Galby was so goddamn powerful and the Empire had such a huge-ass army with a shit-ton of resources. Not to mention, he knew pretty much everything about the Varden. I think Orrin going to Galbatorix, while as interesting as a plot twist that would have been, would have really just tanked the Varden, or if it didn't, pissed off the readers by coming off as a total asspull. (Which, considering how many people thought the ending to Inheritance was an asspull and got turned off of the series because of it, is something I can see Paolini trying to avoid)
savannahdShe was more like a poorly executed character to me, we're told a lot about her, but what her actions show is much different.
cavuyHe did actually at least consider something like it, or so we were told, but we then had him being threatened that any messenger he sent would be killed, and likely him as well considering the pattern the Varden follows. And if the behavior of the Empire's citizens in the occupied cities is any indication, the Varden are far from being seen as liberators, rather as invaders who have teamed up with storybook monsters.
anonymousIn all likelihood that is what would have happened, seeing one of your major leaders going over to the other side speaks a lot about their confidence in the cause.
Anonymous
I completely forgot about the city people's reactions. Honestly, that just makes thing even worse. Especially when you take into consideration that Surda was doing just fine before the Varden.
It's interesting that Paolini had actually gone to the lengths he had to portray the Varden, Eragon and company in such a bad light, and to the people they're 'liberating,' no less. He's arguably put more thought into justifying Galby's cause than the protagonist's, yet he ultimately ends up doing nothing with it aside from casting (intentional?) doubt onto the characters we were supposed to be rooting for.
That's true. I see Galbatorix as the hero of the story, so a Surdan-Empire alliance, coupled with a Galbatorix win would have been a nice outcome for me, but definitely not for fans!
Wait did you say Paolini is planning a prequel? It's not enough to rip off Lucas' good material, but now he has to torment us with another crappy prequel series? How much more can this story be dragged through the mud?
Anonymous
He's said he wants to do a prequel series via Brom's pov. With some Galbatorix povs.
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Anonymous
If the book had been written with the intention of showing that the Varden was bad and the Empire wasn't so bad, it could have been interesting or good. It could have shown how war changes people. How motives can become corrupted. How the saying about it being better to be feared than loved holds true. But instead it is written without that self awareness or intention. So the "good guys" come across as jerks.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2019-09-14 05:55 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
no subject
Troll comment deleted, and if I see any more of this I will be turning off anonymous commenting.