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antishurtugal_rebornOriginally posted by Hi, so I've been lurking around here for quite a while, and, as an ex-fan of TIC, this seems like a good place to finally get something off my chest that has been bothering me ever since I reread Inheritance. Hell, if I'm being completely honest, it's mainly what turned me off of the series (besides the fact that the fourth book sucked major ass).
My main problems boil down to the villains being a hell of a lot more interesting than the protaganists and Galbatorix not seeming that bad. Well, that and the fact that the Varden's actions aren't that justifiable. Allow me to explain. When we first were introduced to Galbatorix in Inheritance, he didn't come off as a total monster like we were meant to believe. In fact, his justification for his take-over made sense and was relatively logical. Given the fact that we still don't know jackshit about the old riders, we can't automatically call him evil for deposing them. We were given a very biased view of history, and for all we know, they really could have been assholes. This coupled with Galbatorix's history makes him a hell of a lot more interesting than anyone on the good side (except for Oromis). Especially Douche-agon. The fact that the Empire runs smoothly and people seem happy also helps with my case here. He doesn't seem like a bad ruler at all.
Moving onto the minor villains, as little as we get about Morzan, even though he sounds like a total prick, the promise of a few chapters from his POV are a hell of a lot more enticing than the Great Chosen One's. Durza was pretty cool. I though the Raazaac were also pretty cool. If the good guys were more interesting, this would not be a problem, but unfortunately, they aren't. This leads me into another problem I have with TIC. The Varden's shady ass justifications.
Can I just start off by saying, at first, I enjoyed Nasuada and the Varden? But, over time, I begin to realize how stupid their justifications were. First off, the entire Varden were basically the elves' foot soliders. Note that. Elves. Not humans. That's a problem when the so-called evil empire runs smoothly and humanity seems happy enough. It makes the Varden look like the bad guys. Not to mention, they were really the ones who started the damn war and caused so much bloodshed. Their entire movement was built on revenge for an order long dead that most humans didn't give a shit about. Not to mention, Nasuada really turned into a goddamn tyrant in the last book.
I'm really interested to read what you guys think, and I hope you'll respond to this. Before I go, I will admit, however, even though I don't consider myself a fan of TIC anymore, if PaoPao does the prequel series like he says he wants to, I'm reading that shit just for the Galbatorix POVs (which are actually confirmed. So yay). I guess that makes me a bad detractor haha.
Comments (I copied out the good/interesting ones, so the bitchfight noted troll blackmanga started in the comments section is not included).
silverphoenixx
My main problems boil down to the villains being a hell of a lot more interesting than the protaganists and Galbatorix not seeming that bad. Well, that and the fact that the Varden's actions aren't that justifiable. Allow me to explain. When we first were introduced to Galbatorix in Inheritance, he didn't come off as a total monster like we were meant to believe. In fact, his justification for his take-over made sense and was relatively logical. Given the fact that we still don't know jackshit about the old riders, we can't automatically call him evil for deposing them. We were given a very biased view of history, and for all we know, they really could have been assholes. This coupled with Galbatorix's history makes him a hell of a lot more interesting than anyone on the good side (except for Oromis). Especially Douche-agon. The fact that the Empire runs smoothly and people seem happy also helps with my case here. He doesn't seem like a bad ruler at all.
Moving onto the minor villains, as little as we get about Morzan, even though he sounds like a total prick, the promise of a few chapters from his POV are a hell of a lot more enticing than the Great Chosen One's. Durza was pretty cool. I though the Raazaac were also pretty cool. If the good guys were more interesting, this would not be a problem, but unfortunately, they aren't. This leads me into another problem I have with TIC. The Varden's shady ass justifications.
Can I just start off by saying, at first, I enjoyed Nasuada and the Varden? But, over time, I begin to realize how stupid their justifications were. First off, the entire Varden were basically the elves' foot soliders. Note that. Elves. Not humans. That's a problem when the so-called evil empire runs smoothly and humanity seems happy enough. It makes the Varden look like the bad guys. Not to mention, they were really the ones who started the damn war and caused so much bloodshed. Their entire movement was built on revenge for an order long dead that most humans didn't give a shit about. Not to mention, Nasuada really turned into a goddamn tyrant in the last book.
I'm really interested to read what you guys think, and I hope you'll respond to this. Before I go, I will admit, however, even though I don't consider myself a fan of TIC anymore, if PaoPao does the prequel series like he says he wants to, I'm reading that shit just for the Galbatorix POVs (which are actually confirmed. So yay). I guess that makes me a bad detractor haha.
Comments (I copied out the good/interesting ones, so the bitchfight noted troll blackmanga started in the comments section is not included).
silverphoenixx
You know, I completely agree with you on everything pertaining to Galbatorix. Paolini made Galbatorix out to be this big huge villain but then doesn't even set up his story properly to reflect his supposed badness. And I think one gets the sense of Galbatorix not living up to the "psychopath monster" label throughout the entire series, starting from very early on in Eragon. Oh, the people of Carvahall might mention taxes being increased, but their quality of life doesn't seem to suffer at all. Hell, Eragon is made out to be incredibly poor but he still lives in a multi-room house. Then as he goes traveling, the cities he visits seem pretty normal. Especially Teirm- nothing about it bespoke insensitive tyranny, other than Jeod and other merchants losing their goods, but then again, they're working for the enemy, and hindering one's antagonists is pretty common practice for all governments. So yeah, I think most of us realized that the whole focal point of the story, overthrowing the big evil king, was really poorly executed and just ended up viewing the Varden as the jerks they are.
I'm not gonna sit here and say that Galb was 100% innocent, but as you pointed out, the world shows us one thing. Paolini tells us another. I know some fans tried to say that galbatorix allowing slavery made him evil, but it isn't exactly like he implemented it. Slavery was a thing in Alagaesia long before Galb took the throne. And considering all the problems that would come with dismantling an age-old practice and the uproar it would bring, it's understandable why he would leave it the hell alone, as fucked up as slavery is.
I know right. That was actually one of the first things that came to mind as an argument against Galby. Slavery has probably existed as long as there have been stratified societies. It's one of the trademarks of nation states. And it would have been an institution that was widely accepted in those days and definitely not something a credible ruler back then would want to get rid of.
Not saying slavery was ever a good thing, but it's not always the black and white issue modern society paints it as.
savannahd
She was more like a poorly executed character to me, we're told a lot about her, but what her actions show is much different.
cavuy
He did actually at least consider something like it, or so we were told, but we then had him being threatened that any messenger he sent would be killed, and likely him as well considering the pattern the Varden follows. And if the behavior of the Empire's citizens in the occupied cities is any indication, the Varden are far from being seen as liberators, rather as invaders who have teamed up with storybook monsters.
anonymous
In all likelihood that is what would have happened, seeing one of your major leaders going over to the other side speaks a lot about their confidence in the cause.
Not saying slavery was ever a good thing, but it's not always the black and white issue modern society paints it as.
None of this is all that surprising. It's a classic case of telling rather than showing. This is why supposedly "heroic" characters like Eragon and Roran can get away with doing horrendous things. While Galbatorix is a horrible ruler just because we're told this by the people against him. Both Eragon and Roran think and do things that make them sound far more sociopathic than we're supposed to think Galbatorix is. It's the amateur mistake of expecting these character's roles, alone, to be enough to justify the moral system. I mean it's hard to feel any real emotion for our "heroes" if their only heroic qualities is that the author says they are...even if one's only major concern on a battlefield was evening out the pile of corpses he's made.
Anonymous
The Varden aren't elves's foot soldiers until the last book, they are just their useful idiots. They took the cities for themselves, not for giving to elves, still the elves prefer human cities to be ruled by Nasuada than Galbatorix because she is a powerhungry bigot without any magic skill and so a weaker neighbor but no a puppet.
An interesting thing about Varden is that they are a little like Francisco Franco! They tried a coup d'etat to depose the usurper and restore the rightful king but when the original leaders or the rebellion died (Brom and Nasuada's father) they did a total war, conquered every inch of imperial land instead of rushing the capital and of course replaced Galbatorix with Nasuada that has nothing in common with the rightful king while Orrin could be the heir since he is from Surda. Francisco Franco did the same: conquered everything and destroy every opposition and become himself the ruler of Spain instead of the king.
An interesting thing about Varden is that they are a little like Francisco Franco! They tried a coup d'etat to depose the usurper and restore the rightful king but when the original leaders or the rebellion died (Brom and Nasuada's father) they did a total war, conquered every inch of imperial land instead of rushing the capital and of course replaced Galbatorix with Nasuada that has nothing in common with the rightful king while Orrin could be the heir since he is from Surda. Francisco Franco did the same: conquered everything and destroy every opposition and become himself the ruler of Spain instead of the king.
Oh, god. Don't even get me started on Nasuada. Fuck her. That's all I have to say. Her and Orrin are douchebags. It would be hilarious if she got axed like three months after she took the throne. Even better if the elves were the ones who orchaestrated it. The elves in this series are the biggest pretentious pricks ever.
I think Orrin was more along for the ride after a while. He was really only along to give a semblance of human unification against Galbatorix along with the other roaming tribe leaders that are given appearances. But really that falls apart when Orrin states that his men follow Nasuada more than they follow him. And let's not forget that the Varden were starting to bankrupt Surda with cheap lace, and refused to stop selling it there just to line their own pockets.
If anyone in the Varden deserves some sympathy, it's Orrin, he's basically been dragged into the entire war when before Galby didn't really have a problem with Surda existing, it seemed.
If anyone in the Varden deserves some sympathy, it's Orrin, he's basically been dragged into the entire war when before Galby didn't really have a problem with Surda existing, it seemed.
That's very true. I just didn't really like how he acted in the fourth book. But then again, it was the fourth book and everything was terrible, so i definitely get where you're coming from. But I think we can both agree Nasuada was such a tool lol. Literally and figuratively.
I think the trouble with Orrin's role in the fourth book was that it was clear that Paolini was setting him up as the voice of dissent within the Varden - questioning Nasuada's leadership, their chances in the war, etc. He did bring up some good points, for instance raising flags about how they might look as liberators when urgals, monsters to most of the people in the Empire, make up a significant part of the Varden's force. Problem is Paolini didn't execute this character direction well enough, as with a lot of other things, and so I think Orrin came across looking somewhat childish when if anything he was the one person on the Varden's side speaking any kind of logic.
I would have liked to see Paolini take this much further - perhaps Orrin, having had enough of Nasuada's disregard for him and the Varden's poor planning, loses faith in their cause and switches sides, making a deal with Galbatorix to spare Surda. Given that the Varden at no point in the story experience any kind of setback or failure (I'm not counting Ajihad's death or Nasuada's capture), a betrayal would have been a nice addition.
I would have liked to see Paolini take this much further - perhaps Orrin, having had enough of Nasuada's disregard for him and the Varden's poor planning, loses faith in their cause and switches sides, making a deal with Galbatorix to spare Surda. Given that the Varden at no point in the story experience any kind of setback or failure (I'm not counting Ajihad's death or Nasuada's capture), a betrayal would have been a nice addition.
Anonymous
I think one of the reasons why Paolini didn't give the Varden any major setbacks is because one or two major setbacks is all it would really take to shut down their entire movement. It was already pretty unbelievable that they could even win, even with the elves', dwarves', and urgals' support. Just because Galby was so goddamn powerful and the Empire had such a huge-ass army with a shit-ton of resources. Not to mention, he knew pretty much everything about the Varden. I think Orrin going to Galbatorix, while as interesting as a plot twist that would have been, would have really just tanked the Varden, or if it didn't, pissed off the readers by coming off as a total asspull. (Which, considering how many people thought the ending to Inheritance was an asspull and got turned off of the series because of it, is something I can see Paolini trying to avoid)
savannahdShe was more like a poorly executed character to me, we're told a lot about her, but what her actions show is much different.
cavuyHe did actually at least consider something like it, or so we were told, but we then had him being threatened that any messenger he sent would be killed, and likely him as well considering the pattern the Varden follows. And if the behavior of the Empire's citizens in the occupied cities is any indication, the Varden are far from being seen as liberators, rather as invaders who have teamed up with storybook monsters.
anonymousIn all likelihood that is what would have happened, seeing one of your major leaders going over to the other side speaks a lot about their confidence in the cause.
Anonymous
I completely forgot about the city people's reactions. Honestly, that just makes thing even worse. Especially when you take into consideration that Surda was doing just fine before the Varden.
It's interesting that Paolini had actually gone to the lengths he had to portray the Varden, Eragon and company in such a bad light, and to the people they're 'liberating,' no less. He's arguably put more thought into justifying Galby's cause than the protagonist's, yet he ultimately ends up doing nothing with it aside from casting (intentional?) doubt onto the characters we were supposed to be rooting for.
That's true. I see Galbatorix as the hero of the story, so a Surdan-Empire alliance, coupled with a Galbatorix win would have been a nice outcome for me, but definitely not for fans!
Wait did you say Paolini is planning a prequel? It's not enough to rip off Lucas' good material, but now he has to torment us with another crappy prequel series? How much more can this story be dragged through the mud?
Anonymous
He's said he wants to do a prequel series via Brom's pov. With some Galbatorix povs.
yoohoo, meesa named Raj-Raj Blinks! Yousa lookee for Dragon Riders, hmm? Yoosa should follow me now, okeeday?
Anonymous
If the book had been written with the intention of showing that the Varden was bad and the Empire wasn't so bad, it could have been interesting or good. It could have shown how war changes people. How motives can become corrupted. How the saying about it being better to be feared than loved holds true. But instead it is written without that self awareness or intention. So the "good guys" come across as jerks.
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 11:26 am (UTC)Every villain who can be easily turned in a good guy without changing a thing of the original story is not a strong villain. Actually, Galbatorix works way better as a misunderstood grey hero victim of the elven propaganda rather that as the cruel monster Paolini is trying to pass as. In fact, everything bad we know about him is what we are told by the elves and their parrots (Brom and all the people who venerate the Old Order). And Paolini's attempts at constructing a villain with grey morality destroyed that bit of evilness Galbatorix still had, turning him into a man who tried his best and made big mistakes, but he repents it and is not afraid of recognizing it and takes full responsibility for his actions and is ready to make up for his poor choices of years ago. This is way more than any of the good guys ever does in the entire Cycle, and is the reason I am rooting for the King.
Also, the situation of Alagaesia doesn't really make sense, if Galbatorix is such a hideous monster as he is said to be. The Surda is left alone and in peace until King Orrin makes the poor choice of joining Nasuada's stupid champaign. The dwarves are clarely prosperous and Galbatorix is not even looking at them. The elves are serene enough to party day and night.
In more than a century, the all powerful Mad King has focused only on the human Empire he is responsible for, leaving the other kingdoms in peace. Galbatorix is clarely not the one pushing for war. He started his own against the Riders, won it with great sacrifices and then stayed contempt with what he obtained.
This is not the behavior of a man thirsty for power and blood. Galbatorix is not a conqueror.
It could be argued that he is preparing for war, but it sounds as a poor excuse since he already defeated the strongest army in that ever existed (Vrael's) with THIRTEEN followers, and now with all his Eldunarya he obtained in Vroengard he is way more powerful than he was back then. If we compare his past strength at the time of the Fall with the canonical information that he's growing stronger and stronger every day, then the excuse of Galbatorix preparing for war fades. He IS ready. He crushed the Riders AND the elves when he was way weaker. He doesn't NEED more strength to burn the Du Weldenvarden down to ashes, no matter what Oromis and Eragon say. It simply doesn't make any sense.
And yet, he didn't. Why? Because he didn't want to. It's the only possible explanation. Galbatorix didn't want another war, he didn't feel the need of destroying the elves or the dwarves or the Surda.
The only thing that Galbatorix took was a human Empire. A human ripped the elven domination from a human Empire, and then stayed contempt with what he obtained. If we rip the elven propaganda from his actions it is actually easy to see him as a sort of champion of the mankind, to freed his own race and let his enemies live until they left his Empire alone. And to see the elves as the spiteful villains who want their power back and lurk in the shadows because the hero didn't finish them off.
And all this happenes because of Paolini's weak plot and his inability to write a good villain. He based all of Galbatorix's danger on his unreachable power, without realizing that an all powerful villain's only limit is his own will. And an all powerful man who doesn't wish a war is not all powerful villain. He's just an all powerful man who wants to be left alone to care for his Empire.
Morzan is probably the meanest of the villains, if anything because we see a result of his actions on Murtagh's skin. And yet, even Morzan's actions can be reasoned and justified more than Eragon's.
I am lazy so I will copy-paste something I wrote on the old forum about Morzan:
Oromis was canonically unable to deal with a challenging disciple like Morzan. And - this is creepy - it is canon that Morzan was still unholy young when he pulled that stunt of his and betrayed the Order. Oromis claimed that he was considering the idea of separating him from Brom, but Morzan escaped before he could take an action. Oromis was still teaching him! Holy shit. How old was Morzan? Sixteen? Seventeen? He was a CHILD! Eragon at that age is a child for Oromis. And Oromis, the elf who rised him and was his only parental figure since he was ten/thirteen was ready to abandon him and in the end he DID.
If Oromis was really such a compassionate, loving teacher he would have fucking jumped on Glaedr and rushed after Morzan and Galbatorix! He would have fought will all his strength to bring back home the young man he rised. Instead, he called him monster and traitor despite having known him for years. Despite knowing that Galbatorix was probably not lucid and that a firm hand could have really helped them.
Really. Oromis doing his fucking job not as a teacher but as a loving mentor could have saved BOTH Morzan and Galbatorix. Can you imagine? Oromis finding them and helping them back on the right path? But of course compassion for people who suffer is for idiots in this Cycle.
I am sorry. I am not giving Morzan all the blame. Because Galbatorix was clarely going through living hell because of Jarnunvosk's death and Morzan was a child.
Morzan stole an egg and got crucified. Eragon mind raped already tortured people, committed a genocide, threatened people and children, and killed innocents and is called a hero. No. Fuck it.
The ugliest traits of Morzan - his violence and his drunkenness - can be both explained with his upbringing and the Banishing of the Names. Honestly, people in real life went on drugs and committed suicide for less painful reasons.
And I cannot stop thinking how fucking young Morzan was when his dragon got cursed into madness. Too young to pay such a price, when we have a protagonist like Eragon.
Tossing a sword at Murtagh is his only really ugly action, but seeing his mental state he still has more excuses than Eragon has for his actions. At least it is canon that Morzan did try to protect both Selena and Murtagh. Had Eragon ever tried to protect Elva? Morzan tossed a sword and got crucified forever. Eragon cursed Elva and threatened her with unbearable sufferings and guilt tripped into submitting herself to horrible pains because he's an entitled jerk.
So, yes. Morzan did something horrible. But I am not abandoning him for it when Paolini wants me to root for Eragon.
Don't get me started on Selena. She gets to pass as the innocent girl who Morzan kidnapped and raped when she was just as bad as he was. She was bloodthirsty and cruel and gets a pass only because she was a woman and Gary Stu's mother. She enjoyed being the Black Hand. Morzan didn't force her into it.
So, yeah... I think that when the villains can be understood and forgiven way more than the good guy guys there IS a problem.
[Not commenting the Ra'zac on purpose. 80% of my posts are about those guys]
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 12:08 pm (UTC)I like Anya's theory that he did it during a PTSD flashback which made him think he saw Vrael rushing in to kill little Murtagh. He tried to attack the hallucination, and accidentally hit Murtagh instead. Hell, even in canon it's stated to have been an accident - Murtagh says Morzan threw his sword in a drunken rage when he happened to be walking past. Except that version is way lamer than what Anya came up with. Either way, it's canon that Morzan didn't deliberately maim his own kid.
Yeah. Some people might have wondered why we at AS are so bent on reinterpreting things so Galbatorix is the good guy (or at least not a cackling evil villain), and quite frankly it's because in a series where you hate the hero you have to latch onto someone else instead. And if it's the guy who wants the hateful hero dead, then you're damn well going to root for him even if he's not the nicest guy around.
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 12:21 pm (UTC)Yes, she told me :D
I, personally, have a different theory for my story of that night, which I told her. And since I am lazy I am copy-pasting that as well.
So, I use this ^ to cover up Morzan's madness, his relationship with his mad dragon, and the fact that he was called "more beast than man". He is willing to sacrifice his sanity and being seen as a drunken monster just to stick with his dragon throught the Banishing of the Names. In my story, Galbatorix and the other Forsworn obviously suspect, but Morzan is not an easy man to confront, especially not on this argument. Still, they all respected his wish to not tell Murtagh. Morzan would rather be hated than pitied.
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 12:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 01:00 pm (UTC)Also, dragons need to be back at the center of the story. Saphira barely influences Eragon. In my story the Forsworn's arc is centered on their dragons, who are more important for them than Saphira ever was for Eragon.
There's something funny about having a hero treating his sane dragon a flying horse and the villains treating their mad dragons with all the care they can give them.
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 01:31 pm (UTC)I know right?? Us humans are crazy enough with just one mind - imagine if you had a second one jockeying for space inside your skull. It's a wonder it didn't drive the old order completely insane.
(...or did it?).
no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 02:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 05:07 am (UTC)Troll comment deleted, and if I see any more of this I will be turning off anonymous commenting.